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Magna Mundi: The sad state of affairs

Discussione in 'Altri Giochi Paradox' iniziata da Enok, 5 Giugno 2012.

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Enok

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Il titolo non è una nuova espansione, ma è quello che introduce una pessima notizia da parte della Paradox Publishing, cioè la sezione di Paradox Interactive responsabile della pubblicazione di Magna Mundi, che ricordo essere sviluppato da una squadra indipendente. In pratica il gioco rischia, nella peggiore delle ipotesi, di essere cancellato, oppure di subire enormi ritardi nel suo rilascio definitivo. Qui segnalo i punti salienti della vicenda, con i commenti delle persone coinvolte, estratti dal forum ufficiale; in pratica il botta e risposta tra sviluppatori (MM) e coloro che mettono i soldi (Paradox).

Mattias Lilja - Paradox Publishing ha scritto:

Hi all,

I wanted to give you an update on the current state of project Magna Mundi. Unfortunately its fate is looking grim. The latest Release Candidate was not at all where it needs to be, far from it.

We failed the latest Release Candidate due to numerous crashes, and will deliver a more extensive list of bugs to the dev team this week.

This latest submission follows a string of Release Candidates who were also failed, and the sad fact is we see just as many crashes, bugs and imbalances as we did 6 months ago, some of them brand new and some of them old and well known. This is not a good sign and a terrible sad one as well as it indicates that the development of the game is not happening in a controlled manner. The game was announced in Jan 2010 and the target was a 2011 release. We have reached a point where we no longer can see an end to this, at least not honestly.

We will see what power the developers can muster to remedy the many holes in the game, but given the recent history of development hopes are not high. It cannot go on like this, and we are at a point where time, money and patience is long gone. Only hard and sad choices remain. Choices we will not make lightly but need to make. We will keep you posted.

Mattias Lilja
Executive Producer of Magna Mundi
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

Most of the issues are with multiplayer, which wasn't tested so much simply because of our limited resources (namely: time) and has some nasty bugs indeed. Single player is in far better shape than several Paradox titles were at their release time and with the Day 1 patch it will be even better.
We still have several options for the game, including the beta release and shutting the whole project down, so it's up to Paradox which path to chose. As I see they have the following choices:
- Postpone release (they obviously don't want to do that)
- Release it as a Beta (it seems that the community supports this idea)
- Take over the project from here and release later (not the best idea because they would spend a lot of time learning how the mechanics and the modified engine work and only then can they start the bug hunt)
- Shut down the project (this option in itself has several scenarios which we will talk about only if this option comes true)

All I can say is that we will work in every minute of our spare time till the decision is made.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

Why wont we release only a single player first? Because that was discussed within the team, but Paradox insisted on having the multiplayer in the first release. I don't know statistics, but according to them, many people play EU3 in multi. Or I don't know why, but they think it's imperative to have.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

I'm still positive that if Paradox wants to release Magna Mundi, we will find a reasonable solution and the game will be released. And I think they want it to be released, or why would have they spent money on it? We have not the right to release the game. It's the right of Paradox.
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Ubik - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

Hi MM fans.

Just to add my voice over Merse here. The game is playable for 30-40-50 years without CTDs except in multiplayer. The multiplayer part is being addressed and even today was already partly addressed.

To sum it up, the game is on a good normal release state. Considering the fact that we have one more month of development ahead, I don't see a problem with all this. There's nothing sad about Magna Mundi state of affairs.

Anyway, let me stress that I sent last week my opinion about what should be done with the game given the debt I consider we at UV and me personally have to the community. Of course, that's up to Paradox to decide what to do.

Expect at least two new "lets play" until the 15th May. Showing the game working is the best way to dismiss your doubts.
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Mattias Lilja - Paradox Publishing ha scritto:

Hi again,

I want to clarify a point about the quality of Magna Mundi and previous releases from Paradox:

Paradox strives to improve in all aspects; technical stability, accessibility and gameplay fun. We have at times fallen short of our goals, but never lost our will to improve. Two wrongs does not make a right; the shortcomings of Magna Mundi does not go away because we have made errors of judgement previously.

Sincerely,
Mattias Lilja
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Ignatich - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

Regarding multiplayer. It is there, but frankly at the moment I can't say that it's stable in the current build. Until recently I was the only one to maintain MP support and perform MP testing. It's hard to focus on MP when I have other issues in the game that need my attention. Investigating desync problems is quite difficult and usually takes considerable time. The recent work on the rendering was a major distraction for example. But I think it's possible to deliver stable MP in a release patch.

I have to admit though, that generally the game is of beta quality at best. It really needs at least a month of polish. If it was up to me, I wouldn't release the game as it is now, but I wouldn't cancel it either.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

This is a decent performance for a newly released Paradox title. But what this really means that we don't have the time to run longer test scenarios right now, but those work without CTD.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

Of course we made longer test, full length tests, hands-off tests too. And the game is fine. A CTD may come around in every few decades though. What I meant that lately, as the deadline came closer we didn't have the time to run full-lenght tests, only to test specific systems, or make a limited, 50-70-100 years tests. But it is not even necessary to make longer runs because as all the features are in already (we're mostly hunting bugs and setting up features to WAD). And lately, we did not experience game crashing issues only in about 30-50 years periods. And these issues can mean only a missing } or " in the code and nothing more serious.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

The situation is not that simple. Paradox has right that they already extended the development time a few time. They also gave us the Divine Wind renderer for free. And there are still bugs in the game, even in SP. Not CTD bugs but bugs, and they must be fixed. So they have a point when they are impatient.
But shutting down the game would be a too drastic decision I think.
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Zolotaya - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

Hello to all the fans of Magna Mundi.

I am the person that was made "Q/A Manager" for the Magna Mundi project, and after Mattias' announcement in "The Sad State of Affairs" thread, I thought I'd write this to you all. First I will lay out a few facts that for better or worse play into everything Mattias claims.

1st Fact: I have gone through an international team of 20 + "testers" from 2009 until today. Only a total of three have stuck with their commitment and two of the three were pulled away from testing to work on other aspects of the project full-time. (i.e. Spanish localization)

2nd Fact: I have been testing Magna Mundi builds every day since the project began; sometimes for 12+ hours. Some testing has been hands-off, and other testing has been with various nations world-wide. More on this later.

3rd Fact: Members of the programming team itself have continually run tests to review theirwork. Sometimes reports from Helius and Ignatich were invaluable to their colleagues in their work.

4th Fact: Due to logistical and technical issues within the UV testing team early in 2009, Multiplayer aspects of the project were entrusted to Ignatich with the caveat that once these
were addressed full multiplayer testing and support would resume.

In my opinion, as expressed by Ignatich earlier, the game needs a month of polishing upon the final integration of the diplomatic/war systems and mechanics.

One of the hardest aspects of testing during this project was that there were several points in its development that major changes were made (ie renderer) and that simply voided much of the testing done prior to each one.

The latest builds (we are in the 4500+ build) are stable enough to run "hands-off" for 50 to 70 years. At that point, reloading from the last saved-game point would allow another 50 to 70 years of game-play. Specific aspects of the game are running quite well.

For the most part, outside of multiplayer - the "well known" bugs that exist for the past year have been related to systems and mechanics not yet finalized. A few of them are legacy bugs and a few of them are bugs that re-crop up from build to build, after we think we squash them.

I have learned a lot from this project, and while there are a couple of things I'd refine and tweak for another, I am happy with the overall results achieved from a testing perspective. It is Paradox's final call on whether to release or in what way to release this title, but again, as Ignatich believes, so do I: it is not ready for release as is, but it is far from the point of deserving cancellation.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

We made the necessary testing. Our problem is not the lack of testing. We know the bugs. but we simply don't have the time to fix them as fast as we want because for all of us it's a part time job.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

What we would need is not more input from the testers but some hours within one day. We work on MM in part-time and because we have other obligations (work, studies, family etc.), we simply doesn't have enough time to fix every bug we found instantly. Currently what we would need is not more bug reports but more hands who can fix bugs. This is rather a difficult situation. I'm sure that we could find people eager to help fixing bugs, but first they would need to familiarize with the game, with the mechanics, with the code. This takes almost one month, and only then can they start to hunt bugs - and we don't have one extra month ATM to teach new coders the code. Circus vicious.
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Helius - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

I am not interested in a game of "he said" - "she said". Anyone whose mind is set to believe that Paradox is justified in axing this game will not be convinced by anything I write here, and will dismiss my statements as worthless, before I even wrote a word. But that will not deter me from stating what I know to be true.

As someone pointed out above, if Paradox considers our game to be broken beyond repair, they have a contractual right to that judgment.
It is besides the point that, as someone with detailed knowledge of the game, I would consider that kind of judgment without merit.
The reason it is besides the point is that my judgment is based on my expectations as a player, and my exacting standards as a developer; not on contracts, money, and suchlike.

I know that there are bugs in the game. I have found and reported and fixed hundreds of them.
I know that these bugs are not game-breaking, in single-player.

I do feel that, if someone is going to pay money for this game (unless they know they are paying for a beta), they can expect there to not be any bugs.
In fact, when I play MM, and whenever I find a bug, I ask myself what I would think if I had payed money for this game. Outrage? Disappointment? Frustration? Probably some combination thereof, depending on whether there was strong post-release support.
Yet, as Ignatich pointed out above, the well-founded consensus among the members of the team whose statements on this matter I am aware of is that we have the capacity to fix 90% of what's broken in a release-day patch (which we imagined might have been 4-6 weeks from now); and that we would have fixed the remainder in regular patches thereafter.

To those who have posted here, if you are a loyal MM fan, thank you! Now dial down the unquestioning loyalty, because the game is in worse shape than you think.
If you are a loyal Paradox fan, dial down the unquestioning loyalty, and prevent further damage to your soul from gloating at someone else's misfortune. The game is in better shape than you think, and you may still have to endure a world in which Magna Mundi will be published, and will shine.
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Helius - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

All of the people on the MM team loved Paradox for the kinds of games they publish, and the kind of modding community they foster. Unfortunately, an official communication from Paradox was what started this thread, and replies seem to have fallen into two categories: Those who believe Paradox's account of the state of the game, and those who believe ours.

My longish, previous post was meant to shake up these categories. I have no illusions about the eagerness of people to align themselves with camps, and less illusions about what camp people will sort me into.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

The main problem is that SP is really fine, but MP is a mess. It's the typical case of that certain glass. For us, it's half full, for Paradox it's half empty.
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Danevang - Crusader Kings II team ha scritto:

Getting a bit depressed about this thread...

I wish the devs would stop playing down the problem with things like "I can fix so many bugs in 20 minutes", and "the game is fine, only multiplayer is not working". I doubt that Paradox would create such a bad feeling about a game they are to release and hopefully sell, if something isn't wrong, and boasting that you can fix so and so many bugs in few weeks, well we've heard that for a long time now. The game has been almost there for too long.

If there keeps coming new bugs, get more help. If you know all the bugs, but haven't got enough employees to get the job done, well then you've bitten over more than you can eat, and surely that's your problem and responsibility, not Paradox'. Can't really blame them for that.

Also, sounding like Paradox are being difficult demanding that multiplayer works...presumably you've made a deal with them that the game should have multiplayer, so probably they're not to blame for wanting it.

Anyhow, I do hope that this game will eventually be released, I've been looking forward to it for so long.
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k_merse - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

I didn't criticize Paradox, I just tried to explain the situation. While we think that the game is fine and we were discussed the possibility of dropping the MP for the first release (IIRC the first time we were talking about this was several months ago), Paradox insists on having MP at release and because it doesn't work properly they are not satisfied with the game.
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Zolotaya - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

As I was pissed upon seeing this thread made. A breach of trust was made. I and the others are only reacting to what was done. There is a lot of blame on both sides for everything that has and has not occurred. This breach of trust was the most egregious in my eyes of things done, for reasons I will keep private at this time.
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Ignatich - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

This situation obviously means that some mistakes were made. The biggest one, I think, is the lack of proper risk management during development process. Features were added with "fix bugs later" concept in mind. This led to inability to measure risks and plan the process properly. Buggy milestone builds in turn contributed to problems with QA process and tensions between Paradox and UV.

At the moment, the game is of beta quality, both SP and MP. You can't, for example, play a game of German unification without any major problems. So yes, the game isn't there yet, and shouldn't be released at this state in my opinion. But it's very close to be finished.

Now about the questions raised about us being part-time developers. This is not a question of money, at least for me, because the money I would get, even if the game sells 50k copies, is laughable considering the time invested. You can't live off this, and this is why we are all part-timers.

Perhaps we all have different reasons to work on the project, but we all share the love for Europa Universalis and MMtM. This is what drives us to keep going and make a good game.
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Che ne pensate? Ce la faranno i nostri eroi?

EDIT

Altri commenti pubblicati poco fa da parte del Magna Mundi team.

Helius - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

I can assure you that all of us have been willing to admit the full extent of the bugs the game still contains, SP (some bugs, but works reasonably well) or MP (broken).

I know this thread has become unwieldy, but if you were to go back to our posts, you would see that none of us are in denial. We would not have chosen to discuss the state of the game in public, on our own. But to assume that Paradox found us unwilling to admit that anything was wrong, or to address bugs reported, is pure conjecture on your part.

In prior 'milestone' deliveries, we have worked off the list of bugs diligently and conscientiously. Never once have we ignored or called into question the validity of a complaint by Paradox.

With the current release candidate, which the OP discussed, I have only received a full list of bugs after this thread was begun.

I do understand that Paradox must feel frustrated with the slow progress on this game. Heck, I am frustrated with it, too! I am not sure why this is now an issue they take public, or why it is now that they felt they needed to cancel the game. But that it their right and their business.
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Zolotaya - Magna Mundi team ha scritto:

If you look at what I said, what Ignatich said and what Helius has said about the actual state of affairs you would see that we all said that the game is not yet ready for release, but it is far from the cancellation step. As both Helius and Ignatich said: Another 4 to 6 weeks and it should be ready.

The "Let's Play" videos focus n specific mechanics to allow people who learn by seeing a way to absorb what the manual details for those who learn by reading.
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Enok, 5 Giugno 2012

#1
Pinky

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Ovviamente no, è un gioco troppo realistico e sofisticato per questi tempi, e la Paradox non vuole creare capolavori senza 234 espansioni prima

Pinky, 5 Giugno 2012

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Luigi

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At the moment, the game is of beta quality, both SP and MP. You can't, for example, play a game of German unification without any major problems. So yes, the game isn't there yet, and shouldn't be released at this state in my opinion. But it's very close to be finished.
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E' una notizia fastidiosa per chi aspettava il gioco MA, per me, se è cambiata la policy di Paradox Interactive riguardo ai giochi buggati in uscita son contento davvero. Magari, come ho letto sul forum, si son scottati con Sword of the Stars 2 ed han deciso di essere un filino più cauti.

Luigi, 5 Giugno 2012

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zethani

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Una pessima notizia, almeno per me. Sembra chiaro che ubik & compagnia cantante abbiano fatto il passo più lungo della gamba e che la Paradox abbia perso la pazienza per i loro ritardi. Aprire una discussione del genere su paradoxplaza è proprio esporli al pubblico ludibrio. Vediamo come si evolverà la situazione.

Ci sono possibilità, qualora la PI tolga supporto al progetto, che possano proseguire comunque nello sviluppo a livello amatoriale secondo voi?

zethani, 5 Giugno 2012

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Enok

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zethani ha scritto: ↑

Ci sono possibilità, qualora la PI tolga supporto al progetto, che possano proseguire comunque nello sviluppo a livello amatoriale secondo voi?
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Praticamente tutto, dal motore di gioco al copyright, è proprietà di Paradox Interactive. A meno di stabilire un nuovo contratto di licenza (cioè Ubik & soci acquistano i diritti per pubblicarlo, cosa decisamente poco probabile), se la Paradox toglie il supporto il gioco verrebbe cancellato.

Enok, 5 Giugno 2012

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^_AC_^ Moderator Membro dello Staff

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Da quel che ho letto in questi mesi sono stati commessi degli errori nella gestione dello sviluppo del gioco. Ricordo che verso Febbraio (se non ricordo male) il capo-progetto Ubik aveva scritto sul forum che il gioco (che era previsto in uscita nel Q1 2012) aveva dei problemi (di cui si assumeva la responsabilità). In particolare il fatto che si è cercato di introdurre tante novità e cose nuove che però alla fine hanno causato problemi perché hanno richiesto tanto tempo per essere ultimate e hanno causato problemi non previsti.

Alla fin fine, da quel che leggo adesso, stiamo assistendo alla continuazione dello stesso scenario:
1) Il gioco doveva uscire nel 2011, poi nel Q1 2012, poi Q2 2012 e ora si parla di Q3 2012, quindi continui ritardi nello sviluppo
2) Pochi giorni fa ho letto (ed è confermato qua sopra) che a un certo punto dello sviluppo di è deciso di usare il nuovo renderer della mappa di Divine Wind (mentre inizialmente il gioco si basava sulla mappa di Heir To The Throne se non erro). Questo ha richiesto ulteriore tempo e ha richiesto ulteriori fase di test e bilanciamento.
3) Ricordo anche che nel mese scorso gli sviluppatori avevano detto che dopo aver rilasciato alcuni screenshot tempo fa molti si erano lamentati della grafica e che quindi a un certo punto hanno rifatto gran parte dell'interfaccia
4) Come purtroppo ben so, trovare beta tester affidabili è difficile e anche questa mancanza deve aver contribuito a ritardare lo sviluppo.
5) Ancora adesso si dice che si sono bug e sono noti, ma che manca il tempo (per gli sviluppatori) per metterli a posto
6) Però se ogni volta che si fallisce una deadline, invece che concentrarsi sul rifinire il gioco si continua a sviluppare e inserire nuova funzionalità, il ciclo non si fermerà mai
7) Anche la Paradox ha delle mancanze, perché secondo me non ha gestito bene lo sviluppo. Da un certo punto di vista, dovevano imporsi meglio e aiutare meglio gli sviluppatore nella gestione del progetto, anche perché problemi simili li ha avuti anche la Paradox in passato (ad esempio HOI3, anche lì tante funzionalità aggiunte - tipo le elezioni - e poi anni ed espansioni prima di farle funzionare a dovere). Quindi i "Game Producer" della Paradox avrebbero dovuto (da quel che posso vedere io dall'esterno, quindi posso sbagliarmi) gestire meglio la situazione, aiutare di più gli sviluppatori, indirizzarli meglio dall'alto della loro maggiore esperienza
8) La Release Candidate consegnata pochi giorni fa (31 maggio) è stata quindi bocciata. Da quello che intuisco, gli sviluppatori hanno ancora un mesetto e la prossima Release Candidate verrà consegnata a fine mese. Se passa l'esame, Magna Mundi verrà pubblicato. Se fallisce, verrà cancellato. Purtroppo.

^_AC_^, 5 Giugno 2012

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TrueKnight

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Temo che ormai quelli della Paradox si siano esposti troppo per dire "stavamo scherzando, il gioco va bene lo stesso"... e la cosa mi addolora, dato che riponevo molte aspetattive su questo gioco, da appassionato del mod MM.

D'altro canto, questa discussione pubblica offre un raro spaccato di cosa avviene "dietro le quinte" durante lo sviluppo di un gioco...non capita tutti i giorni che sviluppatori e casa editrice lavino i panni sporchi sulla pubblica piazza, e questo da modo a profani come me di rendersi conto meglio di come funziona quel mondo...

Purtroppo sembra proprio che abbiano fatto il passo più lungo della gamba, non sono certo i primi nella storia dell'uomo, però è un peccato...

Io spero in un uscita "Beta", in stile Minecraft o Mount&Blade pre-Paradox.

TrueKnight, 5 Giugno 2012

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Enok

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^_AC_^ ha scritto: ↑

8) La Release Candidate consegnata pochi giorni fa (31 maggio) è stata quindi bocciata. Da quello che intuisco, gli sviluppatori hanno ancora un mesetto e la prossima Release Candidate verrà consegnata a fine mese. Se passa l'esame, Magna Mundi verrà pubblicato. Se fallisce, verrà cancellato. Purtroppo.
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Credo anche io che si giocherà tutto in questo mese.

Comunque, secondo Merse del MM Team, ci sono anche altre opzioni:

- Postpone release (they obviously don't want to do that)
- Release it as a Beta (it seems that the community supports this idea)
- Take over the project from here and release later (not the best idea because they would spend a lot of time learning how the mechanics and the modified engine work and only then can they start the bug hunt)
- Shut down the project (this option in itself has several scenarios which we will talk about only if this option comes true)
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Quale di queste vi sembra fattibile? Posporre la data di rilascio ne dubito, dato il livello di sopportazione raggiunto dai produttori. Rilasciarlo, cioè iniziare a venderlo, come una Beta (stile Minecraft) non sarebbe una cattiva idea, ma sarebbe la prima volta per Paradox. Affidarlo a programmatori interni sarebbe problematico, come afferma lo stesso Merse, dato che dovrebbero iniziare da capo a studiarlo, ma forse è l'opzione più probabile tra le precedenti. E poi c'è l'opzione di cancellare il gioco per sempre...

Enok, 5 Giugno 2012

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Pinky

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Sono o per la beta o per bruciarlo

Pinky, 5 Giugno 2012

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Enok ha scritto: ↑

Quale di queste vi sembra fattibile?
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Enok ha scritto: ↑

Posporre la data di rilascio ne dubito, dato il livello di sopportazione raggiunto dai produttori.
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E' già stata posticipata (per l'ultima volta credo) pochi giorni fa, oramai non credo proprio che la Paradox accetterà un altro ritardo.

Enok ha scritto: ↑

Rilasciarlo, cioè iniziare a venderlo, come una Beta (stile Minecraft) non sarebbe una cattiva idea, ma sarebbe la prima volta per Paradox.
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Non so, secondo me non funzionerà. Una cosa che ho imparato è che gli utenti del forum Paradox sono solo una PICCOLA parte di coloro che comprano un gioco. Magna Mundi è un gioco con la potenzialità di vendere decine di migliaia di copie. Come beta? Forse un migliaio? Potrei sbagliarmi.
Come dici tu poi sarebbe la prima volta per la Paradox, una gestione nuova. Ci saranno sicuramente problemi.
E poi a cosa serve una beta a questo punto? Per finanziare il gioco? Ma il problema principale non è quello. Guadagnare tempo? Ok, ma fare una beta è cmq un investimento di tempo che rallenterebbe ulteriormente lo sviluppo. Non la vedo come soluzione perché non penso possa risolvere i problemi.

Enok ha scritto: ↑

Affidarlo a programmatori interni sarebbe problematico, come afferma lo stesso Merse, dato che dovrebbero iniziare da capo a studiarlo, ma forse è l'opzione più probabile tra le precedenti.
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Uhmmm... non credo. Mi sa che ti sei perso la notizia di ieri che AGEOD/Paradox France si separa dalla Paradox come sviluppo e quindi il gioco Napoleon's Campaign 2, che prima era sviluppato al 50% da Paradox France, verrà ora sviluppato completamente dalla Paradox. Quindi giusto ieri gli sviluppatori interni si sono visti appioppare un altro gioco da sviluppare non previsto nei piani. Dubito che abbiano voglia (e soprattutto tempo e risorse) di accollarsene un secondo.

Enok ha scritto: ↑

E poi c'è l'opzione di cancellare il gioco per sempre...
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Questo se fallisce anche la Release Candidate di fine giugno. Io spero che gli sviluppatori di MMtG riescano a farcela.

^_AC_^, 5 Giugno 2012

#10
Enok

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^_AC_^ ha scritto: ↑

Questo se fallisce anche la Release Candidate di fine giugno. Io spero che gli sviluppatori di MMtG riescano a farcela.
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Lo speriamo tutti!

Come ha scritto poco fa Zolotaya, "another 4 to 6 weeks and it should be ready".

Enok, 5 Giugno 2012

#11
^_AC_^ Moderator Membro dello Staff

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Ho trovato questo post di uno degli sviluppatori del gioco un'analisi molto interessante e coraggiosa (nel senso che non si è nascosto ma ha spiegato la situazione al pubblico) di quanto è successo: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...of-affairs&p=13920603&viewfull=1#post13920603

Hi. I have so far resisted the temptation to join the circus, but I won't any longer.

Please forgive our excesses and lapses in professionalism; we are obviously under stress, tempers run hot, and there are those who seem to delight in one of our darkest moments and have no shortage of cruel and provocative things to say. A volatile mix, as you can see. This being said, some of us on the dev team could stand to spend less time on the forums and more time on the game itself where effort would be constructive instead of engaging in pointless verbal acrobatics.

A couple of notes. The MM team is not a monolithic entity. We have different opinions on many things and sometimes vastly so. As Helius, MichaelM, Ignatich, and others have said, none of us joined the project for monetary reasons, which is the sole reason the project survived in spite of the delay. Not once, to my knowledge, did any of the core team ask for money or complain about the situation. It was never about money. For this project, there's more money for us at your neighborhood fast food joint, working the cash register. It was about craftmanship, and the opportunity to modify one of the greatest games to ever be made (EU3). It was through sheer goodwill and enthusiasm that we were ever able to increase the feature list so much to begin with over a year ago.

This may have been our downfall, and as Ignatich mentioned, we did not do proper risk management of what we were implementing. We should have cut half of it. As technical lead, I shoulder most of that responsibility; as we've seen, enthusiasm isn't always enough. I cannot fault Paradox for being out of patience, and it is true that we have consistently missed deadlines. Many deadlines. And we've made mistakes. Many mistakes. Some of them have been outlined; some of them are painfully apparent in this thread and forum. And well, it's the tip of the iceberg.

Traditional studios fold in the face of failure to meet schedules, but we were fortunate (or perhaps unfortunate) enough to never require MM to eat. While, I can't speak for anyone else, today I'm very grateful that MM is not the only thing going on in my life against this devastating background. MM has been more or less a full time project for me and many others for the past two years with hills and valleys here and there. It will be a sore disappointment if it was all for naught, but we will pick up and move on. Not necessarily in the same directions; but for some the journey is beginning.

MMTG was never a one man show and while there always has been an odd cult of personality, MMTG itself exists as a collective dream and a collective effort, and is built by some of the most talented and dedicated people I've had the pleasure of meeting. Some contributors, such as myself, have never had interest nor involvement in the “next project”; for us, attachment and attention is firmly and solely to this project until it is released or canceled, whichever comes first.

Yesterday, I had a hands off game that I started at night (two nights ago) was still going in 1622 in the morning (1453 start) before I killed it and headed to work. Today I have a hands off game that's going now in 1662 (209 years and going in 6h:30, with a debugger attached [slows the game down], albeit on a very fast machine). This is also hands off-- actually doing stuff makes it more likely to crash the game, of course. But I do not believe at all that the game is past saving-- but this decision is out of my hands. It's true that we need more time to deliver a polished product even looking past the technical issues, it's not that our problems disappear if we fix a crash or two; we need proper testing.

We were delivered a new set of bugs yesterday by Paradox. The bug report was very thorough and useful. While, I am pleased to say that most of the critical and major bugs are not the same as before, I am displeased to say that many are not the same as before. It means we have more work to do. Maybe it's a futile bet, but we in the trenches are doing what we can. I truly believe that it isn't beyond saving or else, it would be time to cut our losses and throw in the towel. We may be a bloody mess now, but we'll see you, and the judges, at the final bell.
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^_AC_^, 6 Giugno 2012

#12
Magu11

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Peccato, le meccaniche del MM erano molto interessanti. Spero lo sistemino in questo mese di "ultimatum".

Magu11, 7 Giugno 2012

#13
^_AC_^ Moderator Membro dello Staff

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Magu11 ha scritto: ↑

Spero lo sistemino in questo mese di "ultimatum".
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E' quello che speriamo tutti.

^_AC_^, 8 Giugno 2012

#14
Krown®

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Poi parla proprio la Paradox.. che dopo non so quante espansioni ha un multy di Eu3 che fa ancora cagare per tutti i bug e crash che ci sono; e non si sa ancora quando uscirà la patch 5.2 (che non so il perché ma ho la netta sensazione che non risolverà un fico secco).

Krown®, 9 Giugno 2012

#15
T-Duke76

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Da quel che leggo (già sul forum ufficiale) secondo Ubik ed i "suoi" i problemi si concentrano principalmente per il multy, per il singolo si scrive addirittura "Single player is in far better shape than several Paradox titles were at their release time and with the Day 1 patch it will be even better", appena 4 giorni prima del sinistro e direi anche inatteso annuncio era uscita l'intervista finale di Ubik (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?611069-Magna-Mundi-Final-Developer-Interview) ed ora siamo all'ipotesi di cancellazione? Mi pare eveidente che almeno una delle due parti non stia giocando pulito...

T-Duke76, 10 Giugno 2012

#16
Enok

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Secondo me è tutta una questione di tempi. La Paradox, è vero, ha sempre rilasciato giochi ancora non perfetti, che ha sistemato solo in seguito con le patch e le espansioni, ma riescono ad arrivare a quella situazione dopo un annetto scarso di sviluppo (rilasciano un gioco all'anno praticamente). Invece il team di Ubik ha impiegato un tempo sufficiente a poterne rilasciare svariate di espansioni (circa 3 anni di sviluppo) e sono ancora al punto di partenza, con un gioco in gran parte difettoso.

Quella della Paradox è una chiara strategia, non sono programmatori incompetenti. Rilasciano i giochi il prima possibile (nemmeno un anno di sviluppo), iniziando a venderli, e poi li perfezionano con calma. Con Magna Mundi non solo gli è stato impossibile fare questo, ma dopo 3 anni non c'è nemmeno una versione giocabile.

Enok, 10 Giugno 2012

#17
Enok

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Mattias Lilja - Paradox Publishing ha scritto:

Hi all,

today Paradox Interactive decided to cancel Magna Mundi. It will not see the light of day under the current set up: Universo Virtual (UV) will not be part of this project any more.

The reasons for cancelling the contract with Universo Virtual include the following:

- Lack of progress; we have seen this project drag on and the code we have gotten has not shown significant improvement for many months. Some old and known problems persists and new ones appear with each delivery.

- Lack of trust; the leadership of UV has given a sunshine version of the project to Paradox and reacted with irritation and anger when we have pointed out obvious problems with the deliveries. It has come to a point where they claim the project is done, and the game is ready for release – despite the many critical issues found and reported on our end.

- Internal strife within the MM team; we have gotten information from members within the MM team desperate to save the project whom report to us that the project lacks active leadership. Key personnel in the project see what Paradox sees but instead gets silenced by the UV leadership.

All in all, these are not circumstances under which we can work with a team and it will now stop. At this point we have no more news than the above.

Sincerely and regretfully,
Mattias Lilja
Executive Producer for Magna Mundi
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Tombstone.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?614933-Magna-Mundi-cancelled

Enok, 18 Giugno 2012

#18
^_AC_^ Moderator Membro dello Staff

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Peccato, io ci speravo ancora.

^_AC_^, 18 Giugno 2012

#19
T-Duke76

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E vai tutti a "Forum"

Greetings Magna Mundi fans,

I am just writing this post to let you know that Universo Virtual and myself will answer in the proper legal forum to the weird "cancellation" of the game. I'd also like to make it known the "cancellation" issue is just a detail on everything that's going to be settled there.

I am not going to allow that my name and my credibility are to be placed in jeopardy as they have been for some time now. I intend to come out of this with a big smile in my face and my name clean.

In the following days Universo Virtual legal team will make a public statement about this issue.

Thank you for your support,

Carlos Gustavo Benavente

To be continued...

T-Duke76, 20 Giugno 2012

#20

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